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| Ranking the Tanks | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 30 2014, 06:28 AM (1,084 Views) | |
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Jun 30 2014, 06:28 AM Post #1 |
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Using Reecome vs Vegeta as the baseline for tanks, how should things end up? I think its best to keep an eye on the bloat as the numbers can get out of hand really quickly in this scenario. Reecome is perhaps the only failed tank in the story. We know that gap is more or less a 75% gap. Vegeta is 75% of Reecome As we can see, this tank is actually not all that different than 19 vs Vegeta. At least in what I can recall. Vegeta doesn't get lifted off his feet but he is sent back quite a bit. Vegeta is 75% of Reecome 19 Post is 70% of Vegeta Semi Cell is 68% of Vegeta Cell is 60% of Gohan Vegeta is 50% of Cell 16 is 33% of Semi Cell Well that should start us off. |
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| + Kyouks | Jun 30 2014, 06:38 AM Post #2 |
 
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I think you can avoid bloat if you go against the conventional 40k for Recoome and make him lower. I don't believe his level is ever stated in the manga, just the guidebooks. I think this may have been what Vic told you back in the day. Making Recoome like 36k may be more convenient for some. I do like the 40k considering Goku's apparent 60k though. Plus Recoome, despite being tossed around, is still fairly unscathed so his advantage should be pretty good imo. I think you should take into account Recoome's reaction vs Vegeta's against 19. Much more worried. You could argue it's because Vegeta already knew how strong 19 was, but I think it really makes a difference since it's not like Recoome was off guard or anything. |
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Jun 30 2014, 06:47 AM Post #3 |
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Yea and you could lower Vegeta off that 30k mark as well. Its difficult because I don't think anyone likes the idea of Nail beating them too easily. 40k does indeed seem perfect. But if we could increase the gao between them and 60k would be good as well. Goku seems to look like he would be able to tank them quite easily and performs one of the most dominating efforts in the entire series. Vegeta being 75% of Reecome seems good though considering some of the feats Reecome pulled off. That whole use your speed to come from behind stuff seems to be pretty consistent what we've seen with Cui and Vegeta and Goku vs Vegeta. 75% is a monstrous gap and you are screwed, but not one shotted. Kyouks, how does Goku tank the Ginyu Force? Like Vegeta did? Or Gohan? |
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| + Kyouks | Jun 30 2014, 07:02 AM Post #4 |
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I think if Goku could tank the Ginyus real easily, that would've been used to showcase his power. Instead we're mostly left in awe of his speed, and I believe Goku blocks or dodges any hits he gets from the Ginyus. Admittedly it's tough to imagine any of them putting a dent in him but I'd say it'd probably be a Gohan/Cell kinda deal at best. This is assuming Goku is fighting at 60k of course. Gohan should be able to finish Cell easily as well (although he doesn't feel like it) so I think that's a fair enough comparison. Vegeta/19 could work too. It honestly gets a little subjective here since we're left to guess at what those exact Cell arc gaps are numerically, but I'd definitely say that we're not looking at a Semi Cell type of deal. The gaps go like Semi Cell > Perfect Cell/Vegeta > Gohan > Vegeta/Semi/19 > Recoome, and if Vegeta/Recoome is 75% then Recoome/Goku is around 66%. If Semi/16 were the same as Goku/Recoome then that leaves little room for the rest. |
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Jun 30 2014, 07:09 AM Post #5 |
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Yes I agree. On all accounts. Some of the troubles with this. Now notice how Gohan really digs into some of his strikes against Cell. We know major fights come along with increased durability so its tough to guage. But Gohan definitley does appear to be giving his all at least on that kick. And I agree, its tough to imagine Goku getting dented at all by the Ginyus. How much power was Goku using? I think we need a better understanding of Goku vs Ginyu before we can address Goku vs Ginyu Force. Its best to work around that situation and come back to it. Also, it feels hard to imagine Gohan manhandling 3 Cells even though it probably should be possible. |
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| SSJ | Jun 30 2014, 07:10 AM Post #6 |
 
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P if you are going to lower Vegeta it will be an extremely minimal change. I don't think it would affect your percentages by more than half a percent. Raising or lowering Recoome is the only thing that will drastically change the tanking gaps. @Goku: Goku wasn't stated to be using any amount of power, but Ginyu estimated it would take 60k to effortlessly beat the three members. He could have been 60-70k IMO. Edited by SSJ, Jun 30 2014, 07:12 AM.
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Jun 30 2014, 07:17 AM Post #7 |
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Doesn't Ginyu automatically recalculate his estimate upon fighting Goku? I hear you. There's not much room for Vegeta to dip consider Monster Zarbon vs Vegeta. Problem is, if you dip too low with Reecome, you need to really watch your amplifiers for Vegeta. I'm generally going with a 1.4x boost for Freeza Saga amplified attacks and probably have to resort to what 1.25-1.33x for Namek Saga attacks. Any good logic to amplification getting stronger with zenkais? |
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| + Kyouks | Jun 30 2014, 07:21 AM Post #8 |
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Gohan's certainly pounding Cell, although we know he has to be holding back somewhat regardless of how serious he may appear. He wants Cell alive, and though he probably can't take Cell's Kamehameha, he handles it pretty easily with a lackluster (for him) blast. We also know that 19 sucked power out of Vegeta's hands for a decent while and yet Vegeta still retains noticeable superiority. Granted, 19 may have lost power based on Gero's worries when 19 wasn't absorbing anything from Goku, but I believe this illustrates massive superiority regardless. And if you want to go a step further, Vegeta doesn't know anything about 19 possibly losing power but he allows 19 to do his thing anyway. I've rambled a bit but my point is that these are definitely significant gaps offensively. I think if Vegeta or Gohan really wanted to, they could take out their respective enemies in a few seconds or so (disregarding Cell's regeneration). Something about Goku vs Ginyu that sticks out to me - iirc, Ginyu states that Goku's tougher than he thought, and assuming that Goku didn't power up, he was >60k against the Ginyu Force. Now I do think that Ginyu's 60k prediction gives us the picture that someone at 60k can do everything Goku did, but since Ginyu wasn't actually there, you could stretch things and say he was a little off, probably. Edif: fak yer ninjas Edited by Kyouks, Jun 30 2014, 07:22 AM.
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| SSJ | Jun 30 2014, 07:29 AM Post #9 |
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Maybe, maybe not. Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P3.6 Context: after fighting Goku for a little bit Ginyu: “I see. Seems you’re even more capable than I thought…” This is while they were fighting, but Ginyu also knew that Goku was holding back. So whether he is commenting on the fact that Goku is above 60k, or if it's about Goku's reserves, I'm not sure we will ever know. At this point I think it's an indicator that Goku is over 60k, I've always been inclined to use 70k. I generally don't put Recoome lower than 1.25x stronger than Vegeta because that's about what he demonstrated. Dodoria is about 1.2x weaker than Vegeta, but he was unable to touch him. We must consider that Vegeta never gave him the chance to attack, so we can't be sure how much damage he could still deal. Cui thought his attack would finish off Vegeta, so it's definitely possible for Dodoria to inflict damage on Vegeta. Then moving back to Recoome, we see that damage was inflicted, but not very much. Let's compare this to Cui. Cui was 1.3x weaker than Vegeta, and Vegeta still felt the need to dodge his full power blast. Recoome on the other hand was more than happy to take Vegeta's full power blast, and his physical attacks. Still, little damage was done. Can we chalk this up to Recoome's amazing durability? Or is it saying something about the power gap? I personally believe Recoome is 1.25x stronger than Vegeta, but can one not make the argument that he should be over 1.3x stronger? If Vegeta needed to dodge Cui, but Recoome doesn't need to dodge Vegeta, does that not tell us anything? Edited by SSJ, Jun 30 2014, 07:31 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Jun 30 2014, 07:30 AM Post #10 |
 
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Chapter: 275 (DBZ 81), P4.2 Context: Vegeta powers up to fight Recoom. Jheese: "Hey, hey, Vegeta's battle power has risen up close to 30,000!" 28k, for example, is relatively "close" to 30k, but I'm a tad nitpicky and like to think it's either 29k or above. @SS500: There's a glass ceiling for Recoom, though. He has to be comfortably under Goku who should be right around 60k. Edited by Pyrus, Jun 30 2014, 07:32 AM.
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| SSJ | Jun 30 2014, 07:34 AM Post #11 |
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Not really true. 60k is the starting point for a Goku, Ginyu even confirms that he could be higher. 70k is a possibility. |
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| + Kyouks | Jun 30 2014, 07:35 AM Post #12 |
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I think if we take everything you've said into consideration, 225JQ, Recoome at 40k works pretty nicely. I've also usually had Vegeta at around 29-29.5k. I like him to be pretty close. |
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| SSJ | Jun 30 2014, 07:36 AM Post #13 |
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I agree with 40k, but I think an argument can easily be made for ~45k, based on damage received. |
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Jun 30 2014, 07:37 AM Post #14 |
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Let's step away from Goku Ginyu stuff for a second because that could be an entire thread itself. Let's start with the baseline of Vegeta being 75% of Reecome and get a good hold of how the others should match up based on that. Goku Ginyu is a factor but there is some play there. |
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| + Kyouks | Jun 30 2014, 07:43 AM Post #15 |
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Nekkid Snek is gonna pound us all now. Well I think the Vegeta/19 gap is noticeably larger like I said before based on both the outcomes of the hits and the reactions of the receivers. Let's say that's 66% or something. Considering that the gap between Vegeta and Piccolo should be noticeable in and of itself, Vegeta/19 is gonna be pretty big. |
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